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Post by bfgrad on Jun 10, 2020 19:19:07 GMT -5
hs, I agree that cops should have their records follow them. The way it is now, a bad cop resigns rather than being fired and gets hired somewhere else where the police chief and/or municipal council have no idea he (or she) is a bad actor. While I'm generally a supporter of unions, I also agree they have too much power and are too devoted to protecting the bad cops. I know unions have to protect their worst performing members which is never good for PR, but these cops hold the power of life and death. Maybe that requires a different standard.
I think it's an excellent point about the stress of the job. I'm for random psychological retesting to ID those who may go rogue before they do. I think a division of labor would help as well. A different unit with differently trained officers or trained civilian social workers should handle cases that involve resolving disputes or handling cases involving the mentally ill. Armed officers should for instances of violent crime. You could have a third unit to handle petty crimes like traffic violations and other petty crimes in a non-confrontational way. Heck with all the cameras, license plate readers, radar and other technology, traffic violations wouldn't even need a cop, just a summons goes to your address when you get caught.
We have to demilitarize the police, too. They really do not need DoD's equipment.
Whoever used the phrase "defund the police" certainly had no ear for marketing. Obviously there has to be some way to enforce laws, but I think the idea is to reform by moving money around to provide services that solve the problem before it becomes a law enforcement problem.
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Post by bfgrad on Jun 10, 2020 19:25:41 GMT -5
I have no idea who here is black and who here is white. But after watching the events play out the last two weeks as a white person, I have come to one conclusion. Maybe after all these years we should actually listen to black people. They have something to tell us. I feel like white people always think they know what’s best for black people in America. Time for us to shut up and listen for once.
It is really hard to walk a mile in someone's shoes, but we have to do it.
I will challenge my PSB friends to get and read Taylor Branch's trilogy of the MLK and the struggle for civil rights. "Parting the Waters" is part 1. Part 2 is "Pillar of Fire". Part 2 is "At Canaan's Edge". It undoubtedly will open your eyes.
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Post by hs on Jun 10, 2020 20:08:30 GMT -5
I’m sure it won’t be seen in the mainstream media too much but today Trump had a really good round table with black leaders and they brought up some really good points. One brought up on how Black Lives Matter started. It was back during the riots in Ferguson (under Obama). It was found out the mayor, and later found that many mayors in liberal cities, have been using the police as their own little income generator for their towns by overpolicing, harassing citizens and handing out tickets, fines and violations. She brought up the overpolicing is one of the main issues for the black communities and it mainly comes from Democrats. The other big problem is the plans Trump is trying to implement like opportunity zones, the Democratic mayors and leaders in these areas are not letting the money get to the Black people that need it. It was very informative and enlightening so of course the media will not report it. It showed me Trump is trying to help but Democrats try to keep blacks down and just feed them promises.
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Post by bfgrad on Jun 10, 2020 21:16:44 GMT -5
Civil asset forfeiture is what you are talking about. It's where the cops see money or other valuables and claim they are from drug deals or some other illegal action. Back in 2013, the New Yorker had a big story on it here: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken.
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Post by stones on Jun 10, 2020 21:27:38 GMT -5
Still a smart guy I had this conversation before with people If you feel the system isn't working why keep voting for the same thing LOL To me it makes no sense for African Americans to vote for Democrats Trump passed criminal justice reform Opportunity zones promotes school choice and provided HBCU funding so he is trying Before the virus Black unemployment was the lowest ever
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Post by bfgrad on Jun 11, 2020 13:40:22 GMT -5
Economic opportunity zones have been around for awhile. Here in Pennsylvania, they've existed since 1999 and are extended periodically by the state legislature. The Economic Opportunity Act was passed in 1964 which for the first time created this:
Good on Trump for signing the FUTURE Act that permanently funds HBCUs although it should be noted this bill was developed by a Democratic majority in the House, then negotiated with the GOP-controlled Senate to reach a bi-partisan consensus.
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Post by stones on Jun 11, 2020 20:34:32 GMT -5
The economic policies of our first black president exacerbated black unemployment during the recession, helping black unemployment to reach or exceed 16 percent on 11 occasions. Obama Administration officials told us that high national unemployment, high black unemployment and a depressed economic environment in which businesses hired fewer employees because people stopped looking for work was the “new normal.” But, since 2016, black unemployment has significantly and consistently declined. Under President Trump, black unemployment reached an all-time low on several occasions. Black unemployment dropped below six percent for the first time in May 2017. Twice this year – in August and September 2019 – black unemployment dropped and held steady at 5.5 percent. In October 2019, black unemployment is 5.4 percent – the lowest rate ever recorded.
08 to 2015 double digit unemployment for blacks
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Post by yig on Jun 12, 2020 6:36:09 GMT -5
To piggy back off of the point that BT said that white people need to listen to black people, this one hits home a bit: Nihilism and White Bliss in America's Most Livable CityHits on some good points, maybe takes some cheap shots, but again, for discussion's sake to that point above.
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Post by hs on Jun 12, 2020 8:49:02 GMT -5
Definitely some cheap shots in that article. If these protesters think defacing a statue of a man that has brought hundreds of millions to the city of Pittsburgh will get them what they want, I think they are sorely mistaken. What the article fails to say is Lemieux tried to revamp the Hill District but they wanted more and more and they thought what he was doing wasn’t good enough to he basically told them to kick rocks and pulled out. He also offered that church next to the arena millions of dollars for that lot and offered to build the church in another location but again, they kept asking for more and he said never mind. The article also fails to bring up the horrible Pittsburgh public school system that is one of the worst in the country that no leaders seem to want to fix except to throw money at it. They would rather build bike paths around Pittsburgh versus figuring out why Pittsburgh school crank out some of the worst test scores.
I also like how they say the NHL, a mostly white sport. They don’t say the NFL and NBA, a mostly black sport. I guess that’s a backhanded way of saying the NHL is racist but no one is stopping black kids from lacing up skates and learning how to do a slap shot. I guess the excuse would be it’s too expensive for all that gear even though the Penguins organization and Crosby basically pay everything for kids to learn the game.
you can’t reason and even talk to someone that keeps moving the goal post. I don’t even know how to respond to saying that even giving a black person a ticket is racist or to defund the police because the police are racists. That’s not a starting point for me. They won’t bring up how some mayors abused the system by overpolicing (the article did bring it up barely), and how the Police Unions need to be put in control because that would go against the Democratic base
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Post by bfgrad on Jun 12, 2020 14:03:27 GMT -5
yig, hs,
The Hill was once a thriving community, but the urban redevelopment in the 1960s, including building the Civic Arena, ruined it, ultimately for everybody. I know urban redevelopment was based on the latest thinking at the time, but in retrospect, it broke more than it fixed. "Remembering Wiley Avenue" is a terrific WQED documentary on the subject.
The current residents of the Hill District know that history and want to make sure it doesn't recur. I don't think we can blame them for wanting guarantees from the Pens. David Morehouse worked for Bill Clinton, iirc, and is a Pgh native, so he knows the history. That's why the Pens are trying to accomodate the Hill residents' concerns. But, make no mistake, Lemieux and Burkle are not afraid to play hardball when it suits their purposes. Never forget, Lemieux had the Penguins sold not one, but twice, before Bettman stepped in and prevented it. Then Rendell helped negotiate the deal that kept the team here. The Pens move to "throw in the towel" on development rights a couple weeks ago was a hardball ploy to get things rolling.
I think part of the problem is it takes a lot of time, energy and commitment to establish and organize one of these community groups that ends up negotiating on the residents' behalf. Only the most committed activists want to do it and I think that tends to bias these groups toward whatver the wishes of the founder/CEO are. It's a lot like trying to negotiate with a clowder of cats - hard to corral and get them all the same page.
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Post by hs on Jun 12, 2020 16:32:43 GMT -5
Your last sentence bfgrad is what is going on right now in this country. Young people, black and white, BLM, Antifa want everything from police reform, every cop fired, defund the police, all the way up to anti-government where they want to take over entire towns in Seattle
And I’ll get into it later but Rendell wanted nothing to do with the Penguins. He was a Philly guy and the Pens were good as gone until the two politicians from Pittsburgh (forget their names) stepped in and told Rendell they were as good as done if the Penguins leave
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Post by baldwintrack on Jun 13, 2020 9:05:38 GMT -5
No offense hs but you saying many of those talking points are non starters is pretty much exactly why we are here.
Whether or not you agree with the points being made, you have to understand that African Americans certainly and unequivocally think they’re being systematically depressed. By telling them they aren’t and they just aren’t working hard enough you are just making a group of upset people angry.
What I would like to see are real discussions about reparations. A large sum of money paid out like the stimulus checks. Like $100k plus per person. It would be a drop in the bucket of the amount of money most African Americans lose out on over the course of their lives due to racism but it would open some REAL dialogue. If you want to solve a problem you have to negotiate with good faith. And generally speaking African Americans don’t think these negotiations are ever in good faith.
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Post by yig on Jun 13, 2020 10:39:10 GMT -5
Full disclosure....I am a fan of Mario Lemieux the person, and while philantropy does not always correlate with goodness (there are bad people or relatively bad people who are philantropic either as a tax writeoff the benefit themselves or sometimes for genuinely good purposes...thinking someone like Marge Schott or Harvey Weinstein), there is nothing about Mario Lemieux to me that reeks of him being a bad person by any stretch. There are reasons to distrust him occasionally on certain issues (he is a businessman after all and possibly above all), but as a whole, he seems to do a whole lot of good and has done more for the city of Pittsburgh than any other living Pittsburgher that I can think of (in spite of his either greed or wreckless choices of buyers to sell the Penguins to a decade and a half ago).
Also full disclosure...I am not particularly familiar with the closing of UPMC Braddock and the opening of a medical center in a more affluent area, nor if Lemieux by partnering with UPMC has anything at fault here...if the author was right to call that out, then good, but I know nothing of said situation and from afar it seems unrelated (it would be like saying by my shopping at Home Depot that I support Bernie Marcus who has been retired for nearly 2 decades now, who supports Donald Trump, so by shopping at Home Depot I support Donald Trump, which for many people buying mulch or paint or power tools that is not the case of course).
With that said, I saw two different narratives here. One is the one directly regarding the Penguins and their relationship with their local neighborhood. Simply put, this relationship is and has always been complicated at best (for the reasons mentioned in the article as well as by BF and hs in comments above). I think that this story is simply told to explain to the average Yinzer just why someone would actually deface the Lemieux Statue in front of PPG Paints Arena. The level of contempt is probably not nearly as personal as one may feel towards a Confederate general who literally fought on behalf of keeping slavery alive in our country and were willing to commit treason to do so. Or for an overt racist who happens to be a philantropist (see: Marge Schott above, who's name has been back in the news in the past week because of the amount of buildings with her name on them). But the point is that it is rational for someone or a group of individuals to see Lemieux as a symbol or a scapegoat or the reason of the Penguins and their lack of follow through on their promises regarding their role in The Hill a decade ago (the needle has sadly moved very little at this point despite the Penguins success and the overall success of the economy and the Penguins financials over the past decade).
The other narrartive is the overall attitude/tone deafness regarding race in general and the protests/riots in general. I would like to think that by now everyone knows that whether deliberately or unwittingly African Americans are profiled and pulled over more frequently and for lesser mover violations, so hopefully the quip goes without saying, and if you're not aware, you just need to get out more, as to be fair that is easy to see with one's own eyes...we don't need anyone telling us this. My concern of society in general is a total naivity and lack of awareness regarding these types of situations that happen all the time everywhere. In this regard the fans' relationship with the Penguins is a perfect example of a much larger scale issue. No Penguins fan that I know of deliberately likes the Penguins because they support marginalizing the locals on The Hills. They may or may not be for that, but most likely they like the Penguins because they like sports or like hockey or have civic pride regarding the Penguins and their place. The naivity is that somehow the Penguins can be in the wrong as local business partners and bad neighbors, and that African Americans are being the most proportunately impacted by their business practices and lack of action. This happens pretty much everywhere unfortunately, and the Pens are just an example (as a Duquesne alum, I can say with certainty for example that Duquesne is even more impressively isolated from the reality of life that occurs literally actross the street from the campus...our motto used to be "DU More" but their local outreach is obviously hit or miss, doing some great things but not even attempting to make an impact in other areas).
Exhibit A of being tone deaf is responding to "we need to listen more" with a response of "African American unemployment was low for a while under Trump so they should support Trump more," ignoring everything from feelings, quality of the jobs or lack there of, lack of advancement opportunities, locations of these jobs, etc. just from that bucket, not including other measureables such as life expectancy if it's getting better or worse, if arrests for non violent crimes are up or down, if home ownership is up or down and how sustainable home ownership is for minorities, if savings and wealth is up or down among that demographic, etc. We all need to do a better job of listening and understanding and not just using talking points within our own echochamber as the solutions to the real world problems of racism and lack of opportunity for minorities.
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Post by hs on Jun 13, 2020 10:41:17 GMT -5
Yes defunding the police is absolutely a non starter for me. I laid out a few posts ago what I would negotiate with like better training, more physiological tests after several years, take back some of the unions power, a policeman’s record follows them versus being hidden and etc. overpolicing is a big issue with these areas also but like I said before, these issues aren’t being brought up because it goes against st the unions and mayors in most of these towns which are mainly Democrats or donate to Democrats
and your second paragraph I have never said in any of my posts that Black people aren’t working hard enough or being depressed in some ways in some areas but that is what is jumped to when you disagree with anything these days. If I disagree with defunding the police and say that’s a non starter well then I must be a racist and think blacks just need to get off welfare and work harder. I guess I need to be like Pelosi and the other Democratic panderers and put on an African garb and kneel in the Capitol
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Post by crabber on Jun 13, 2020 12:44:07 GMT -5
No offense hs but you saying many of those talking points are non starters is pretty much exactly why we are here. Whether or not you agree with the points being made, you have to understand that African Americans certainly and unequivocally think they’re being systematically depressed. By telling them they aren’t and they just aren’t working hard enough you are just making a group of upset people angry. What I would like to see are real discussions about reparations. A large sum of money paid out like the stimulus checks. Like $100k plus per person. It would be a drop in the bucket of the amount of money most African Americans lose out on over the course of their lives due to racism but it would open some REAL dialogue. If you want to solve a problem you have to negotiate with good faith. And generally speaking African Americans don’t think these negotiations are ever in good faith. That is the best post I have seen on this thread. Thank's Baldwintrack..
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